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	<title>Comments on: PLM vs. ERP: Demand for Business Process</title>
	<atom:link href="http://plmtwine.com/2009/09/02/plm-vs-erp-demand-for-business-process/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://plmtwine.com/2009/09/02/plm-vs-erp-demand-for-business-process/</link>
	<description>Product Lifecycle Management by Oleg Shilovitsky</description>
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		<title>By: olegshilovitsky</title>
		<link>http://plmtwine.com/2009/09/02/plm-vs-erp-demand-for-business-process/#comment-2295</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[olegshilovitsky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 17:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://plmtwine.com/?p=3018#comment-2295</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chris, I&#039;d say, in addition, Excel is always good compromise, when people cannot agree about system usage, ownership etc... Oleg]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, I&#8217;d say, in addition, Excel is always good compromise, when people cannot agree about system usage, ownership etc&#8230; Oleg</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://plmtwine.com/2009/09/02/plm-vs-erp-demand-for-business-process/#comment-2291</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://plmtwine.com/?p=3018#comment-2291</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would say the reason people use Excel is because cost is distributed and in flux.  Like Alan states one group will pitch in to help the other and the applications are built to only catch the end state.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say the reason people use Excel is because cost is distributed and in flux.  Like Alan states one group will pitch in to help the other and the applications are built to only catch the end state.</p>
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		<title>By: olegshilovitsky</title>
		<link>http://plmtwine.com/2009/09/02/plm-vs-erp-demand-for-business-process/#comment-2289</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[olegshilovitsky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://plmtwine.com/?p=3018#comment-2289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alan, I think all enterprise systems (PLM and ERP are on the list, of course) are doing very bad with distributed data management. Some mashup ideas can may be work, but we come to data ownership and complexity of solution very soon. Have you had chance to experience with such approach? Best, Oleg]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan, I think all enterprise systems (PLM and ERP are on the list, of course) are doing very bad with distributed data management. Some mashup ideas can may be work, but we come to data ownership and complexity of solution very soon. Have you had chance to experience with such approach? Best, Oleg</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Taracuk</title>
		<link>http://plmtwine.com/2009/09/02/plm-vs-erp-demand-for-business-process/#comment-2285</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan Taracuk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://plmtwine.com/?p=3018#comment-2285</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chris,

From my experience in a more complex product, total product cost ownership lies with either a Product Manager or Program Manager.  A good design engineer is aware and responsible for all costs related to design/development and production of his/her part(s)including regualatory, quality...  As you say, most of these costs are recorded in the ERP system either in the manufacturing or finance modules, after the fact.  The real challenge is having a &quot;system&quot; that can be used to predict, analyze and strategize what the costs will be before they are too committed.  This is still a gap in my opinion.

The remaining costs of sales and marketing and projecting sales and profitability is a whole other piece of the puzzle that still needs addressing.

I would not call cost management collaborative as much as I would call it distributed.  The data comes from multiple sources.  The collaboration comes when one area can&#039;t hit their cost target and other areas pitch in to help.  This assumes the use of some sort of target costing approach and the ability to roll the data up to see where things are at.  Historically, this has not been a strength of PLM or ERP.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,</p>
<p>From my experience in a more complex product, total product cost ownership lies with either a Product Manager or Program Manager.  A good design engineer is aware and responsible for all costs related to design/development and production of his/her part(s)including regualatory, quality&#8230;  As you say, most of these costs are recorded in the ERP system either in the manufacturing or finance modules, after the fact.  The real challenge is having a &#8220;system&#8221; that can be used to predict, analyze and strategize what the costs will be before they are too committed.  This is still a gap in my opinion.</p>
<p>The remaining costs of sales and marketing and projecting sales and profitability is a whole other piece of the puzzle that still needs addressing.</p>
<p>I would not call cost management collaborative as much as I would call it distributed.  The data comes from multiple sources.  The collaboration comes when one area can&#8217;t hit their cost target and other areas pitch in to help.  This assumes the use of some sort of target costing approach and the ability to roll the data up to see where things are at.  Historically, this has not been a strength of PLM or ERP.</p>
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		<title>By: olegshilovitsky</title>
		<link>http://plmtwine.com/2009/09/02/plm-vs-erp-demand-for-business-process/#comment-2275</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[olegshilovitsky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 22:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://plmtwine.com/?p=3018#comment-2275</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chris, I think there are many &quot;variables&quot; that have cross-application ownership. Cost is just one of them. Regulatory compliance, customer information and many others should come to this list as well. I&#039;d not call them &quot;people-centric&quot;. In my view this is just business information that crosses domains as we set them up. But these boundaries becomes more and more fuzzy, as I see them. Best, Oleg.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, I think there are many &#8220;variables&#8221; that have cross-application ownership. Cost is just one of them. Regulatory compliance, customer information and many others should come to this list as well. I&#8217;d not call them &#8220;people-centric&#8221;. In my view this is just business information that crosses domains as we set them up. But these boundaries becomes more and more fuzzy, as I see them. Best, Oleg.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://plmtwine.com/2009/09/02/plm-vs-erp-demand-for-business-process/#comment-2272</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://plmtwine.com/?p=3018#comment-2272</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cost certainly seems like an issue that unravels the nicely knit PLM pitch.  Cost is one of those things that cuts across so many in the organization.  Certainly a designer sets cost based on the geometry and tolerance the specify, but manufacturing, inventory, quality, regulatory and even those marketing guys define/add to the cost of the product.  Alan is it fair to say cost is something that is highly collaborative?  With so many adding to the cost is there anyone you can point the finger at for ownership?  Certainly we record component cost in the ERP system but who as an individual owns responsibility for cost?  Certainly finance qualifies what the &quot;true&quot; or &quot;real&quot; cost is but who is responsible for cost?

I imagine there are other product attributes there are just like cost.  What about quality and inspection procedures and inventory levels and requirements?  Are all these things highly collaborative or should I say &quot;people centric&quot; versus file centric?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cost certainly seems like an issue that unravels the nicely knit PLM pitch.  Cost is one of those things that cuts across so many in the organization.  Certainly a designer sets cost based on the geometry and tolerance the specify, but manufacturing, inventory, quality, regulatory and even those marketing guys define/add to the cost of the product.  Alan is it fair to say cost is something that is highly collaborative?  With so many adding to the cost is there anyone you can point the finger at for ownership?  Certainly we record component cost in the ERP system but who as an individual owns responsibility for cost?  Certainly finance qualifies what the &#8220;true&#8221; or &#8220;real&#8221; cost is but who is responsible for cost?</p>
<p>I imagine there are other product attributes there are just like cost.  What about quality and inspection procedures and inventory levels and requirements?  Are all these things highly collaborative or should I say &#8220;people centric&#8221; versus file centric?</p>
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		<title>By: olegshilovitsky</title>
		<link>http://plmtwine.com/2009/09/02/plm-vs-erp-demand-for-business-process/#comment-2270</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[olegshilovitsky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 21:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://plmtwine.com/?p=3018#comment-2270</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alan, I agree with you. Most of PLMs have &quot;engineering&quot; roots. However, you are right, we shifted topic a little. Back to original &quot;process&quot; focus, process solution for cost management can provide much more then just &quot;few cost field in BOM&quot;. I never seen such solution out of the box coming from PLM vendor. Best, Oleg]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan, I agree with you. Most of PLMs have &#8220;engineering&#8221; roots. However, you are right, we shifted topic a little. Back to original &#8220;process&#8221; focus, process solution for cost management can provide much more then just &#8220;few cost field in BOM&#8221;. I never seen such solution out of the box coming from PLM vendor. Best, Oleg</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Taracuk</title>
		<link>http://plmtwine.com/2009/09/02/plm-vs-erp-demand-for-business-process/#comment-2269</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan Taracuk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 21:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://plmtwine.com/?p=3018#comment-2269</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oleg,

I am not sure I follow your last post.  Perhaps it was my previous post was not that clear so let me clarify in no particular order.
1.  Data comes from multiple sources.  Consider an assembly made in Plant A which uses parts from your Plants B &amp; C and well as outside suppliers.  In many cases, determining the cost for parts from Plants B&amp;C is the responsibility of the plants or component divisions.  Costs for purchased components comes from Purchasing/Procurement.  Costs to do the assembly in Plant A may come from Plant A or Assembly division. 

2.  PLM applications have not been involved in the cost management arena as long as they have been with engineering.  Cost/Finance types do not think the same way engineers think.  They often structure their data differently.  Just like Design Engineers often think and structure their data differently than manufacturing engineers.  It is not as simple as hanging some cost fields off of the EBOM.  Until PLM providers think and develop apps the way Finance/Cost guys think then short of corporate mandate, Excel will prevail.
3. What is the problem to be solved?  A solution for a 12 part assembly is probably different from an offering comprised of 120 End Saleable configurations with 1200 parts.  A Target Costing/Design to cost process requires a different solution than a back end roll-up.  Going back to part of your original post topic Business Process (not necessarily workflow) needs to be understood before automation solution has enough benefit to move beyond the Excel kingdom.  In my opinion, PLM providers are not there yet.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oleg,</p>
<p>I am not sure I follow your last post.  Perhaps it was my previous post was not that clear so let me clarify in no particular order.<br />
1.  Data comes from multiple sources.  Consider an assembly made in Plant A which uses parts from your Plants B &amp; C and well as outside suppliers.  In many cases, determining the cost for parts from Plants B&amp;C is the responsibility of the plants or component divisions.  Costs for purchased components comes from Purchasing/Procurement.  Costs to do the assembly in Plant A may come from Plant A or Assembly division. </p>
<p>2.  PLM applications have not been involved in the cost management arena as long as they have been with engineering.  Cost/Finance types do not think the same way engineers think.  They often structure their data differently.  Just like Design Engineers often think and structure their data differently than manufacturing engineers.  It is not as simple as hanging some cost fields off of the EBOM.  Until PLM providers think and develop apps the way Finance/Cost guys think then short of corporate mandate, Excel will prevail.<br />
3. What is the problem to be solved?  A solution for a 12 part assembly is probably different from an offering comprised of 120 End Saleable configurations with 1200 parts.  A Target Costing/Design to cost process requires a different solution than a back end roll-up.  Going back to part of your original post topic Business Process (not necessarily workflow) needs to be understood before automation solution has enough benefit to move beyond the Excel kingdom.  In my opinion, PLM providers are not there yet.</p>
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		<title>By: olegshilovitsky</title>
		<link>http://plmtwine.com/2009/09/02/plm-vs-erp-demand-for-business-process/#comment-2268</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[olegshilovitsky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://plmtwine.com/?p=3018#comment-2268</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alan, Thanks for your insight! I think I got your point- cost analyzes is function that can be disconnected from overal stream as soon as you know how to get data there and reconcile results. So, we back to the topic of Excel kingdom - usability, flexibility and data ownership. There is definitely value in overall cost control, but in today ecosystem customer need 1/buy additional PLM licenses (instead of Excel); 2/Get new people (finance, PM) into PLM user experience; 3/allow integration to make data flowing back and forth. All together sounds like a very expensive project compare to MS Excel with some import/export functions.... So, key questions: 

1. Is it really so cheap, to manage BOM cost in Excel on the long term? 
2. How to make PLM experience adjusted to that? 

and the last one - I&#039;m sure BOM cost analyzes make a lot of sense for the long term. When PLM approach allows you to make these analyzes and see what decision was and what are outputs and impact, the MS Excel approach is very fragmented. You cannot handle excels and corresponded decisions for long term (ah... you can say - SharePoint does)... 

So, my bottom line. Value of PLM in cost analyzes is obvious. Approach sounds like NO.

Best. Oleg]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan, Thanks for your insight! I think I got your point- cost analyzes is function that can be disconnected from overal stream as soon as you know how to get data there and reconcile results. So, we back to the topic of Excel kingdom &#8211; usability, flexibility and data ownership. There is definitely value in overall cost control, but in today ecosystem customer need 1/buy additional PLM licenses (instead of Excel); 2/Get new people (finance, PM) into PLM user experience; 3/allow integration to make data flowing back and forth. All together sounds like a very expensive project compare to MS Excel with some import/export functions&#8230;. So, key questions: </p>
<p>1. Is it really so cheap, to manage BOM cost in Excel on the long term?<br />
2. How to make PLM experience adjusted to that? </p>
<p>and the last one &#8211; I&#8217;m sure BOM cost analyzes make a lot of sense for the long term. When PLM approach allows you to make these analyzes and see what decision was and what are outputs and impact, the MS Excel approach is very fragmented. You cannot handle excels and corresponded decisions for long term (ah&#8230; you can say &#8211; SharePoint does)&#8230; </p>
<p>So, my bottom line. Value of PLM in cost analyzes is obvious. Approach sounds like NO.</p>
<p>Best. Oleg</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Taracuk</title>
		<link>http://plmtwine.com/2009/09/02/plm-vs-erp-demand-for-business-process/#comment-2267</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan Taracuk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 13:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://plmtwine.com/?p=3018#comment-2267</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[True, production cost is typically maintained in the MBOM, which typically means in MRP.  However in my experience this data does not get loaded till just before production ramp.  So Excel is stil the king of cost management during the design/pre-production stage.  Data may come from all over but the master models are still in Excel.  There are multiple reasons why cost has not been mainstream PLM.  1. As we have discussed, PLM has traditionally been engineering centric.  While cost management is traditionally owned by finance, program management or manufacturing.  2. PLM vendors have been engineering centric and apps reflect this.  Until the PLM cost modules are similar to Excel in ease of use, the drivers aren&#039;t as clear cut.  3. The Financial BOM is often different structurally from the EBOM or MBOM.  Until the reconciliation process is determined, the automation benefits are weak.  There are some non-mainstream PLM vendors focused on this space but I believe still needing to address these core issues.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True, production cost is typically maintained in the MBOM, which typically means in MRP.  However in my experience this data does not get loaded till just before production ramp.  So Excel is stil the king of cost management during the design/pre-production stage.  Data may come from all over but the master models are still in Excel.  There are multiple reasons why cost has not been mainstream PLM.  1. As we have discussed, PLM has traditionally been engineering centric.  While cost management is traditionally owned by finance, program management or manufacturing.  2. PLM vendors have been engineering centric and apps reflect this.  Until the PLM cost modules are similar to Excel in ease of use, the drivers aren&#8217;t as clear cut.  3. The Financial BOM is often different structurally from the EBOM or MBOM.  Until the reconciliation process is determined, the automation benefits are weak.  There are some non-mainstream PLM vendors focused on this space but I believe still needing to address these core issues.</p>
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